Tonga Latest News Information

Thursday, January 13, 2011

That is tracking you online?

Translate Request has too much data
Parameter name: request
Translate Request has too much data
Parameter name: request

Ed Felten, chief technologist, Federal Trade Commission (starting January 2011), director, Center for Information Technology Policy, professor, computer science and public affairs, Princeton University, Princeton, N.J.

Craig Wills, professor, Computer Science Department, Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Worcester, Mass.

Many top websites deposit tracking tools on Internet surfers' computers, in order to help online marketers target ads. Ira Flatow and guests discuss Internet tracking, and the Federal Trade Commission's suggestion that browser makers build in a sort of "do not track" button.

IRA FLATOW, host:

This is SCIENCE FRIDAY from NPR. I'm Ira Flatow.

You notice how every time you search for something on Google, ads pop up on the side, trying to whisk you away from the search results? It's obvious how the ads get there: They're based on what you search for. If you Google Miami vacation, you'll get ads for hotels, airlines, maybe mojito mix.

More mysterious, maybe, is how ads that seem tailor-made for you, like the ad for boots you almost bought three weeks ago, how they seem to show up on sites without you typing anything. How do they know?

Well, it's all due to tracking of your moves going on behind the scenes as you search the Web. So if you go to msnbc.com or Google, YouTube, CNN, Dictionary, almost all the top sites, with the exception of Wikipedia, they're depositing little tracking tools on your computer when you visit them, digital breadcrumbs that can trace a path of where you've been.

But just a few weeks ago, the Federal Trade Commission said maybe it's time for a sort of do not track option for your browser, sort of like a do not call registry, that would let you opt out of this tracking and targeted advertising.

Is that something you'd like to see? And if so, how would something like that even work? If you build it into a browser, would online marketers just outsmart the latest privacy tools and find a way around it? Maybe you like those ads. Maybe you'd rather see the ads based on your interest, you like to go to them.

Give us a call. What do you think? 1-800-989-8255, 1-800-989-TALK. And if you're on Twitter, you can tweet us your question, your views @scifri, @-S-C-I-F-R-I, and of course, you can surf over to our website at sciencefriday.com and join the discussion there, also.

Let me introduce my guests. Ed Felten is director of the Center for Information Technology Policy at Princeton University. He's also a professor of computer science and public affairs there. And starting next month, he'll be chief technologist for Federal Trade Commission. He joins us from our studios in D.C. Welcome back to SCIENCE FRIDAY, Dr. Felton.

Dr. ED FELTEN (Center for Information Technology Policy, Princeton University): Thanks, Ira.

FLATOW: You're welcome. Craig Willis(ph) is a professor in the Computer Science Department at Worcester Polytechnic Institute in Worcester, Massachusetts. He joins us by phone. Welcome to SCIENCE FRIDAY.

Professor CRAIG WILLS (Professor, Computer Science Department, Worcester Polytechnic Institute): Thank you, Ira. It is Craig Wills.

FLATOW: What did I say?

Prof. WILLS: You said Willis.

FLATOW: Oh, I'm sorry. I - well, now you're an official member of the SCIENCE FRIDAY crew.

(Soundbite of laughter)

FLATOW: If I don't screw up your name - let me begin with you, Craig Wills. Tell us about what we have to fear. What kinds of things do people find out about us when we go searching, or we go surfing around the Internet?

Prof. WILLS: Well, they find out - so basically we have these - so when you go surfing around the Web, you go to what we would call first-party sites. And in the background, we have these third parties who you typically, as users, don't see. And these third parties are the ones that are actually tracking you.

And what they're doing is they're using some of these cookies that you referred to that build up an anonymous profile about us that if I go to ESPN, I probably like sports; if I go to NASCAR, I'm probably male, or maybe if I go to AARP, that says something about how old I am.

FLATOW: Yeah. But what about all these cookies we used to hear about? Are there still these cookies around?

Prof. WILLS: Oh, they're very much still around.

FLATOW: And is that how the tracking is done?

Prof. WILLS: Well, yes. That is certainly probably the most common and easiest way to do tracking.

FLATOW: And what is exactly in the cookie? What does it tell the, you know, the cookie?

Prof. WILLS: The cookie itself is actually just a unique identifier that back at the advertiser that there's basically a database that that identifier is just a key into the database, and things are being stored in the database about what's being learned about the sites that I visit.

FLATOW: Ed Felten, can't you just turn off the cookies to stop this trafficking?

Dr. FELTEN: Well, you can turn off cookies. You can turn off third-party cookies, and that would stop you from being tracked by cookies. But there are quite a few other ways in which sites can track you even if you do turn off cookies, and you don't have options to turn all of those off as of today.

FLATOW: Such as? What other ways are there?

Dr. FELTEN: There are a bunch of different ways. One way is called Flash cookies that uses a technology called Flash that we often use to do things like look at movies. And that provides another way that a site can place a unique identifier on your computer. And there are several others of that type.

There also is a method called browser fingerprinting, which looks at the unique configuration of your browser, which turns out to really be unique, and uses that to identify you.

FLATOW: And if you go to a shopping cart, does the shopping cart know what you're interested in and then offer you other things?

Dr. FELTEN: Well, certainly that can happen. This is what we call first-party marketing. That is, the first party, the site that you think you're going to, is watching what you do on the site, and that in itself is no surprise. And then it may offer you, the site may offer you other products that you might be interested in.

FLATOW: And why, like I said before, if you're shopping for shoes weeks ago, does it remember? Does it have such a long memory that it will come back?

Dr. FELTEN: Indeed it could. The - what would have happened in that scenario, perhaps, is that when you initially looked at the shoes, a cookie was put on your computer or was there already with some unique identifier.

And then later, say weeks later in your scenario, that cookie is given back to an ad agency, and it recognizes you as the same person who looked at the shoes a few weeks ago, and so it shows you that ad.

FLATOW: Let's talk about this do not track idea compared to the telephone do not call list. You know, you supposedly can tell a central database that you don't want people to give you these phone calls. Would that work on the Internet, that idea?

Dr. FELTEN: Well, the general idea of giving people a way to opt out of this behavior, calling or - commercial calling or tracking is the same, but the way that it would work is different because the Internet is a bit different from the phone system.

FLATOW: And would it be effective?

Dr. FELTEN: I think it would. There are several ways that one could go about building a do not track system. But I'm convinced that it can be done, and it can be effective at protecting people from the harm.

FLATOW: Craig Wills, you have done some work looking at privacy leaks from social networking sites. Can you tell us about what's going on there?

Prof. WILLS: Right, and this kind of adds another interesting twist to this notion that these tracking sites are aggregating information about our behavior, what websites that we're going to.

Back in 2009, with a colleague at AT&T Research, we published a report showing that not only are these tracking servers following our behavior, we can also track and find out who are, our identity, through social networking sites.

FLATOW: And how much information does it need to know who you are?

Prof. WILLS: Well, in many cases, what we found was that a social networking identifier, another identifier gets leaked to the third-party advertiser, and that would be a potential for that advertiser then to go look up that information and say ah, this is Craig Wills that is actually associated with this cookie.

In some cases, we actually saw personal information from the social networking site, such as my name or my company or my college being passed directly to an advertiser.

FLATOW: No kidding, and without your knowledge?

Prof. WILLS: Without my knowledge.

FLATOW: But, you know, when you log onto these sites sometimes, there's 40 pages of agreement there. Is that what you're giving up when you join some of the social network sites, the right to keep that data private?

Prof. WILLS: I don't know. I haven't really tried to understand that 40 pages, and I'm not sure many people have.

(Soundbite of laughter)

FLATOW: Yeah, did you let - Craig, did you let social network sites know what they found so they could fix it, and did they?

Prof. WILLS: We did, and to our knowledge, when we published this in August of 2009, to our knowledge none of the sites took any action.

FLATOW: No kidding? Why do you think that is?

Prof. WILLS: I don't know. I think it's a legitimate question to ask.

FLATOW: Wow, and there have been further articles about it. Wasn't there an article in the Wall Street Journal in January or February, some time back, where they uncovered this?

Prof. WILLS: There was, and then some of them at that point said: Oh, we've never heard of this problem.

FLATOW: Even though you told them about it?

Prof. WILLS: Even though we did notify them, yes.

FLATOW: Wow. Ed Felten, Microsoft said they're going to build tracking protection into Internet Explorer 9. How is that going to work?

Dr. FELTEN: The basic idea is that your browser would have a list of sites that engage in third-party tracking, and your browser would then not go to any of those sites on the list when they would otherwise be accessed as third-party sites. That list would not come from Microsoft, but you could subscribe to lists that are published by anybody.

FLATOW: Now the FTC, according to headlines around the newspapers and the Internet, is going to propose this do not track option for the Internet. Is that going to be enforceable, or are we going to require the cooperation of the companies involved?

Dr. FELTEN: Well, certainly in order to make a do not track system work, you need cooperation from some companies. And there are different ways that could come about.

That could come about by self-regulation, that is a bunch of companies in the industry getting together and agreeing on a code of best practices that they pledge to follow. Or in principle, it could come because Congress passes a law establishing a do not track list or asking the FTC to do so.

FLATOW: So if it's just a code, then there's no punishment because you can say I will or won't follow the code. But if it's a law, it might have more teeth?

Dr. FELTEN: Well, if it is a code, and a company pledges to follow the code and then breaks that pledge, that would have legal consequences, as I understand it.

So even a voluntary pledge, if taken in a formal way, does have legal consequences.

FLATOW: 1-800-989-8255 is our number, if you'd like to call and ask about this. Let's take a phone call before the break. Mary(ph) in Tulsa, hi, Mary.

MARY (Caller): Hi, how are you?

FLATOW: Hi there. Go ahead.

MARY: Hi, yeah. I just wanted to comment on that proposed bill or law about the privacy. I actually like the tracking system. Otherwise, you know, we're going to get non-specific advertising on everybody's computer.

Advertising is not going to go away on the Internet, and I would much rather have things that I'm interested in than, say, embarrassing Viagra ads that might be well-funded but pointed toward a general audience.

FLATOW: Yeah, well, Mary, if you were getting Viagra ads, we'd know the system is not working.

(Soundbite of laughter)

MARY: Well, I'm just...

FLATOW: I understand.

MARY: I'm just more of a proponent of more specialized ads.

FLATOW: Yeah, I understand your point. Let me ask Craig or Ed to comment. Good point, Mary: You'd rather see stuff that you know you might be interested than just spam all over the place.

MARY: Yeah because we're going to get ads one way or the other. That's just how the Internet works. That's how people make money.

FLATOW: Yeah. Good question.

Dr. FELTEN: It is a good point, and that's one of the reasons why the do-not-track proposals are optional. That is, it's your option whether to opt out of tracking or whether, in your case, I guess, you would decide to keep it going.

It's also worth saying, I think, that even if a consumer does opt out of tracking, there are methods that companies can pursue to try to show you options for ads that you might be more interested in.

You might be willing to tell an ad agency or an industry group that you're seeing ads on particular things and not others.

FLATOW: You get them through email; why not get them through your browser? Stay with us. We're going to come back and talk more with Ed Felten and Craig Wills. Our number, 1-800-989-8255. Your Internet privacy we're talking about this hour on SCIENCE FRIDAY. You can also tweet us @scifri, @-S-C-I-F-R-I. Stay right there. We'll be right back.

(Soundbite of music)

FLATOW: You're listening to SCIENCE FRIDAY. I'm Ira Flatow.

We're talking this hour about your privacy on the Internet and advertisers tracking you, with my guest, Edward Felten, director of the Center for Information Technology Policy of Princeton University in New Jersey, also professor of computer science and public affairs there. Starting next month, he'll be chief technologist for the Federal Trade Commission.

Also with us is Craig Wills. He's professor in the Computer Science Department at Worcester Polytechnic Institute in Worcester, Massachusetts.

Our number, 1-800-989-8255. Ed Felten, chief technologist for the FTC. How are you going to read all that stuff? I mean how are you going to keep up with all the technology changes? It must be some challenge, one heck of a challenge.

Dr. FELTEN: Well, sure, there is a lot going on. And that's, I think, one of the reasons why the FTC wanted to have a chief technologist. There are a lot of things going on, but there are a lot of people out there who are watching it and who I hope will be talking to me.

FLATOW: And when does your tenure begin?

Dr. FELTEN: On the first of the year.

FLATOW: On the first of the year. 1-800-989-8255. Let's go to the phones. Abdel(ph) in Orlando, hi there.

ABDEL (Caller): Hi there. Big fan of your show, Ira.

FLATOW: Thank you.

ABDEL: I love it.

FLATOW: Go ahead.

ABDEL: All right. My question was: If we have to pay a monthly fee for the Internet and see all those pop-up ads, and they pour millions of dollars for those ads, why do we have to pay for Internet?

FLATOW: Good question.

ABDEL: It's just like HBO. If I pay a certain amount of money, I don't get to watch commercials. So why do I pay a monthly fee for Internet if I have those ads?

FLATOW: I don't have an answer for that. That's a good - well, let's see if our experts - Craig or Edward, any comment on that?

Prof. WILLS: I guess you're paying - you're paying for the bits to arrive to your to your home, and then I guess the advertising pays for you to see the content of the particular sites.

ABDEL: Oh.

FLATOW: You know, Abdel, what the real answer is, I think? It's because you will pay for them.

ABDEL: Okay, that makes sense.

FLATOW: You know what I mean? You'll get - and if you pay for them, they'll charge you for it, and you - you know, you'll agree or not agree. So if they build it, you will come and pay for it. If not, you have an option not to. So I think they know that you'll pay for it if they charge you for it. That's how business works.

ABDEL: That's right. All right, thank you.

FLATOW: All right. Thanks for calling. 1-800-989-8255. Let's see if we can get another phone call or two. Vincent in Chico, California. Hi, Vincent.

VINCENT (Caller): Hi, how are you?

FLATOW: Hi there.

VINCENT: I use a series of Web browsers that are in the Mozilla family called Firefox, and they have had an add-on for several years called Adblock Plus that has several lists of these type of tracking sites, as well as a whole - options to block ads in general or classes of ads.

And so I don't actually store cookies because of these, and in addition, the ads don't show up, nor do the tracking things get blocked. That's been in existence for now I think about six or seven years. Would this type of tool be applicable to Internet Explorer or be the type of thing that we're talking about?

FLATOW: Craig, what do you think about these add-on tools?

Prof. WILLS: They're good, and, you know, I use Firefox as well. And, you know, part of the problem is that the set of tools that are out there are a bit varied, and it's not - you know, you go from one browser to another, the set of tools or how you use the tools varies. And I think that caused a problem.

Another problem - and I'm certainly familiar with ad blockers - one issue that we found with things like ad blockers is there are some third-party companies that are treated as what we call a hidden third party, that it looks like they belong to the first-party site that you're going to, but they actually - the server and the content actually goes to a third party instead.

VINCENT: So that's like cross-scripting?

Prof. WILLS: Not so much cross-scripting, but it's like, you know, you might have, if I go to, you know, CNN, there would ad.cnn.com that looks like it's a CNN server but actually belongs to a third party.

FLATOW: Wow. Yeah, I've seen some of those. Thanks for calling. 1-800-989-8255. What about these functions on some of the browsers now that say private browsing? Does that help? Does that keep you from getting some sort of - getting tagged by people you do not want to have? Or what about clearing your cache, getting rid of those old places, those temporary files? Do either of those work?

Dr. FELTEN: These methods do provide some protection, but sometimes they're overkill in the sense that you might be throwing out stored information that you'd actually want to keep.

Cookies and other technologies like this are sometimes used for - in a first-party setting for things like remembering your log-in or remembering what's in your shopping cart.

And when you delete all of your cookies, you'll be getting rid of those as well. Similarly with private browsing mode, you get less control than you might perhaps want.

What I think a lot of people will want is to be able to control tracking and some of these technologies without completely shutting off all storage in their browser.

FLATOW: What about we are now heading toward a world of mobility, Craig, where, you know, we're going to be doing everything on our smartphones or our iPads or those tablet sorts of things. Is it a bigger problem than with desktop computers?

Prof. WILLS: Well, it certainly adds in a couple extra kind of pieces of information that are potentially of concern that could get leaked to a third party. One of those is that - your precise location.

So if you - you know, we studied mobile online social networks such as, say, Foursquare. And one of things there, you can actually check in your current location, and that's a very precise location about you, and if that location gets leaked, then that's, you know, potentially concerning from a privacy standpoint.

These devices also have a unique device identifier - that is, something that is particular to that device and only that device, and if somehow that device identifier gets leaked to a third party, and that third party then can link that to your identity, then we have a case that that third party knows exactly who that device belongs to.

FLATOW: Is it possible to create a Web browser - let's say somebody doesn't want to really make any money on ads and wants to just create a third-party Web browser just for the sake of having one - can you make one that will not keep track or, you know, send you all those ads? Is it possible to do that?

Dr. FELTEN: You certainly could make a browser that does not allow tracking, and you could make a browser that blocks a lot of ads. But I actually dont think that's what most consumers want and what's necessarily conducive to having a healthy Internet economy.

I really think that what people want is the ability to control the tracking that goes on, and I think people are willing to see ads, or at least have accepted that ads are a part of the Internet economy. What they - what people I think are more worried about is other uses of tracking.

FLATOW: We only have a few minutes left, but I can't let you go without asking you what your views are going to be on Net neutrality as you become the chief technology up there.

Dr. FELTEN: Well, Net neutrality is a tough issue, and it's not an issue on which the FTC is the lead agency. The FTC's concerns really primarily have to do with consumer protection. Our colleagues over at the Federal Communications Commission have been taking the lead on Net neutrality. And of course that's also been an issue that's been hotly debated in Congress.

FLATOW: Craig, what's your take on it?

Prof. WILLS: You know, it's not something that we've looked at in great detail, and so I'll pass on that one.

FLATOW: Let me see if I can get a call or two in here. Let's go to Daniel in Fayetteville, Arkansas. Hi, Daniel.

DANIEL (Caller): Hi, thank you for taking my call.

FLATOW: Hi there.

DANIEL: I have a couple of comments, actually, and they're linked by the kind of overarching topic we're discussing.

But first off, we talk about privacy as though it were something that actually existed in this particular case. But what we're actually doing is we ask for these customized browsing experiences. We want these targeted ads, as another caller sort of mentioned earlier.

And when a website asks you what is your average income level, it is your obligation to either answer that or not answer that based on what your personal level of acceptable privacy is.

So when you put all this information out there, you're actually saying I give up this level of privacy for this experience, and so that's something that I don't think is being discussed very much, and it's sort of, I thought, a little bit telling that in a discussion about privacy on the Internet, you say Tweet us. And Twitter is a fantastic sort of example of giving up that privacy, and so is Foursquare, as was mentioned a second ago.

The other thing being that I sort of feel like the media, as of late, has gotten hold of this story and has sort of turned it into the next big bad scare. And they use, you know, not necessarily like a soundbite like a politician would use, but they throw things out there like tracking and cookies and all of these things that have been around for years and years and years.

FLATOW: But Daniel - I have to say goodbye. Let me just ask(ph) - most of the callers we've had on this afternoon are not against the tracking.

DANIEL: Right, right.

FLATOW: So I mean, whatever the media is doing, at least the callers have not - you know, they've done their own homework on it.

DANIEL: Yeah, I suppose that's true to an extent, but my point being, you know, I think that a lot of this, you know, the sort of continued discussion of it, it's sort of a non-issue, and we keep bringing it up and keep dredging it up and creating legislation that's probably not going to be very well enforced.

FLATOW: All right. We have to say goodbye because we've run out of - I want to thank you both. I want to wish you luck, Ed Felten...

Dr. FELTEN: Thank you.

FLATOW: ...in your new job as the chief technologist for the Federal Trade Commission. I want to thank you for taking time to be with us today.

Dr. FELTEN: Thanks.

FLATOW: You're welcome.

And Craig Wills, professor in the Computer Science Department at Worcester Polytech Institute in Worcester, Massachusetts, thank you for joining us. I said Worcester Polytechnic Institute, didn't I?

Prof. WILLS: Very good. You got it right, and I appreciate being here.

(Soundbite of laughter)

FLATOW: You're welcome. Have a good weekend.

Mr. WILLS: Okay.

FLATOW: We're going to say - we're going to take a break now and come back and have something else to talk about.

Copyright © 2010 National Public Radio®. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to National Public Radio. This transcript is provided for personal, noncommercial use only, pursuant to our Terms of Use. Any other use requires NPR's prior permission. Visit our permissions page for further information.

NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by a contractor for NPR, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of NPR's programming is the audio.

View the original article here

Wednesday, January 12, 2011

When is a life insurance policy more valuable cash

Or, in another case, a grown-up with a policy of this kind needs money representing not for heirs but for personal needs - perhaps pay for long-term health care, travel or simply to be able to survive.

A life insurance policy is a financial instrument, an asset. Like all other assets, has a value. It is not only the face - value which shall be paid to the death of the owner, but some lesser amount a buyer can afford in order to meet the nominal value when the insured person dies.

The concept of the sale of rights to life insurance policies appeared in the 1980s, as the multiplied AIDS epidemic. Some patients lost their jobs; others require additional funds for medical treatment. Sell a life insurance policy could be a person with effective AIDS quickly.

The buyers of such policies have emerged, attracted because they believed that most sellers had a short life expectancy.

As AIDS was transformed from a judgment of almost certain death to a chronic disease, at least for many people in the United States, the necessity of such patients raise money for decreased medical treatment. And the market for this type of policy was reduced as life expectancy has increased.

But another category of people who were willing to the approach to their 70, sell, and is a group of buyers. The sale of a life insurance policy is called a Viatical, settlement if the owner is not expected to live more than two years, or a life settlement. They have different tax consequences, but the concept behind the two are similar, according to Gloria Grening Wolk, who has written three books on the subject, including "Cash for the Final Days" (Bialkin Books, 1997).

"Not going with the first one that makes you an offer", said Ms. Wolk, comparing that to accept the first offer for a home. A successful sale is "like a traditional auction" if people do well, he said.

Jonathan D. Pond, a financial planner in Newton, Massachusetts, said to sell a life insurance policy before death sometimes can make sense. "If you really need the money, there is no doubt, worth bearing in mind," he said.

Mr. Pond advises clients in need of money to first "seek other sources of money cash," such as housing, reverse mortgages and surrender value equity loans or loan life insurance policies. But the typical policy said, reserve a substantial amount as a benefit of death, even after of the surrender, so the holder may not be as effective as a buyer would pay.

The payment depends on a variety of factors, said William e. Massey, Thomson Reuters, including "age, gender, health, hope of life, type of policy and its value in cash," tax senior analyst if any.

If a policy is not already paid in full, the buyer typically takes on payments.

The amount of money that a seller receives ultimately may be affected by the tax laws. Viatical settlements are not subject to tax on income, said Mr. Massey, but are of life settlements and the amount depends on if the policy has a value of money in cash. Suggested that a seller to consult a tax professional to determine what would be the tax on a proposed sale or delivery, and that would be more beneficial.

States have been tougher regulation of buyers of settlement.

There is no "a legitimate purpose in settlements viaticals and life," said Kim Holland, of Oklahoma, Insurance Commissioner in which passed a law in 2008 regulatory solution buyers. He said that dear State sellers act carefully.

Necessary to face an avalanche of buyers outside of the State requested older residents and encouraged them to buy and sell, then policies, perhaps offering $35,000 or $30,000 for the rights to a policy of 1 million dollars, Oklahoma said. The new law imposes a period of two years of operation.

New York Governor David a. Paterson signed legislation in November impose regulations on settlements of life; until then, only Viatical settlements related to certification as unlikely to live more than two years, sellers are regulated.

Matthew j. Gaul, the Deputy Superintendent for life in the Department of insurance in the State of New York, said that the new law, which would be fully effective on May 18, will provide oversight of State on business solution.

There has been "abusive practices in the industry, buyers and brokers" that recruited to sellers, says Mr. Galo.

Offering advice to potential sellers, Mr. Gaul said such sales were "somewhat". where consumers really need store comparison between different vendors

"Bids obtained may be different from a provider to provider," he said.

Or, as mentioned by Mr. Pond, sellers need "much education" and a lot of homework to get the best treatment.

View the original article here

For some researchers, BP Oil Spill Is Just home

Fans get our favorite stories, exclusive videos and messages in real time while we are in the air.

Be our fan!

View the original article here

A.I.A. Said sale to falter pricing

Prudential has called for a lower price after shareholders complained that the treatment was too expensive. Prudential shareholders are set to vote on the agreement on 7 June. 75% Shareholder approval is required.

Two months ago, A.I.G. had said the sale of the unit, known as American international warranty or A.I.A., was a big step backwards paying her rescue of several federal dollars. If the operation fails, it will most likely become a fallback plan to celebrate a first public offering of A.I.A. in Hong Kong, said these people.

Both parties still have to compromise on a new price, although Prudential is likely looking for a price of less than $ 30 million, these people said.

It was not clear whether the Department of Treasury, major shareholder of A.I.G. with a game of 79.9%, would support a sale for less than 32 million dollars.

A.I.G. expected to hold a meeting of the Board in the coming days to consider their options, one of those people said.

A.I.G. spokespersons refused to comment on.

In a statement submitted with the Hong Kong stock exchange on Friday, Prudential said, "confirm us that the debate on the current status of the transaction has taken place between Prudential and A.I.G. and continues." These discussions may or may not lead to a change in the terms of the combination of A.I.A. Group Limited and
"Reasonable."

The stakes are high for Prudential and A.I.G. The British company, which is unrelated to the United States - financial Prudential has bet its future on the purchase of A.I.A. says that the operation would transform and significantly expand its presence in Asia, creating a beast of insurance in that continent.

Largest contributors deal include Robert H. Benmosche, Executive Director of the A.I.G., who pushed for the sale of A.I.A. in spite of the reluctance of some directors.

Several of the main shareholders Prudential have protested that the purchase price is too high, especially since the company plans to sell new shares $ 21 million to help finance the deal. Tidjane Thiam, seven months, Prudential Chief Ejecutivo has faced heavy criticism for treating such an ambitious agreement with relatively little experience.

Prudential said A.I.G. who currently do not anticipate winning enough shareholders, one of those people said.

Tuesday one large proxy RiskMetrics, advice companies urged investors to vote against the transaction. But another, glass, Lewis & Company recommended on Thursday that the shareholders approved the agreement.

An initial public offering of A.I.A., that would be an alternative to sale to Prudential, carries risks as well. Analysts have said that it may be difficult to organize an important offer if persists the recent market volatility.

But Treasury officials are encouraged by recent improvements in Citigroup and the Government recently sold 20 percent of their participation in the Bank for a profit.

View the original article here

Commitment to seek A.I.G. drive

Both parties are expected to reach a compromise, which would probably be the current $ 35.5 million price reduced to $ 32 million $ 30 million said that these people, who were granted anonymity because the talks are confidential. A shareholder in the business ballot is scheduled for June 7.

A.I.G. Board met on Monday afternoon to discuss accept a lower price, which would be more likely to come from decreased the amount of material to be published. If you agree, a revised transaction could be announced as soon as Tuesday.

Prudential, a British insurer unrelated financial United States, Prudential has said A.I.G. its shareholders would not support the treatment at the current price.

At stake is the largest movement still A.I.G. to pay billions of dollars in government aid. The sale of the unit, the American international assurance or A.I.A., was hit in early March. A.I.G. intends to offer initial drive should the talks fail, but discord on the prospects for an uncertain I.P.O. markets brand.

Two greatest defenders unit sales are the Executive Directors of Prudential and A.I.G.

Prudential boss, Tidjane Thiam, has focused his tenure in brief on the completion of the transaction that would transform the company into a beast in the Asian insurance industry.

Executive Director of the A.I.G., Robert H. Benmosche has garnered praise for its strategy of waiting sell crucial parts of the insurer, instead of on a sale of firearms in their businesses. He argued that sale A.I.A. both would raise more money and provide greater security to pay A.I.G. obligations to the Government.

But already announced, the Prudential treatment has faced many obstacles. In may, the financial regulator in Great Britain, the financial services authority delayed long-awaited issue of rights of Prudential, $ 21 million meaning to finance purchase A.I.A., to test the capital ratios the combined company.

And now several of the main shareholders Prudential have objected to what they have criticized as a Rico price for A.I.A., informed the people on the subject, said. Several of these shareholders have pointed out that it would support the transaction if it significantly reformed.

One large proxy RiskMetrics, advice companies urged investors last week to vote on the transaction. But another, glass, Lewis & Company recommends more later in the week that shareholders approved the agreement.

Andrew Ross Sorkin contributed reporting.

View the original article here

The Man Who Turned taxidermy in an art form

Translate Request has too much data
Parameter name: request
Translate Request has too much data
Parameter name: request

In Kingdom Under Glass, author Jay Kirk tells the life story of Carl Akeley, the pioneering taxidermist and adventurer who once killed a leopard with his bare hands. Taxidermist David Schwendeman runs his family's 90-year-old studio and describes the techniques and hazards of modern taxidermy.

IRA FLATOW, host:

Next up, you ever wander around the American Museum of Natural History here in New York? What's the thing you remember most? If you've done this for years, then I say picture something at the museum. I'm going to guess you're seeing those stuff-animal dioramas, right? Because that's what I remember most from 40-or-so years of walking around there, looking at those dioramas of gazelles and wildebeests and zebras. They're gathered around a water hole, right? They're sort of set in a spot. You might see them out in the wild.

Have you ever wondered how they got that gazelle to look so realistic, the alert look on its face, like it's just got a whiff of a predator or the tendons and the muscles stretched tight beneath its hide as it prepares to sort of bolt off to safety?

Well, it turns out that there's one man who's really largely responsible for a lot of that magic, a taxidermist by the name of Carl Akeley. Akeley revolutionized natural history museums in the early 1900s, dreaming up the idea of putting animals in realistic scenes of life on the savannah, instead of just putting stuffed hides in wood and glass boxes as people had been doing before.

It wasn't easy to get the animals to look so alive, so muscular, rather than just a patchwork of skin and stuff - stuffed body filled with sawdust and rags. He figured out how to do all of that and how to elevate taxidermy to an artform.

And along the way he had some crazy adventures, like the time he wrestled the leopard, killing it with his own bare hands, or a more unfortunate encounter when he was mauled by an elephant. Those are just a few of the fascinating stories about Akeley in my next guest's book, "Kingdom Under Glass: A Tale of Obsession, Adventure and One Man's Quest to Preserve the World's Great Animals."

Jay Kirk is the author of that book. He's also a professor of creative writing at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia.

Welcome to SCIENCE FRIDAY, Mr. Kirk.

Professor JAY KIRK (University of Pennsylvania): Thank you, Ira.

FLATOW: You know, I - until I read this book, I really had no idea how all that got started. As I say, I've been going to that museum and others, you know, in Chicago, other places and seeing those dioramas - I had no idea how that got going.

Prof. KIRK: I didn't either. I mean, it's - I'm the same. When I was a little kid that was one of my favorite things to do when I went to New York, was to go visit the dioramas. So when I found out myself, I was pretty excited and excited that I hadn't been scooped yet...

(Soundbite of laughter)

Prof. KIRK: ...in terms of a book.

FLATOW: I'll bet. We're talking about the life and times of Akeley on SCIENCE FRIDAY from NPR. I'm Ira Flatow talking with Jay Kirk.

How did you get interested in this, Jay?

Prof. KIRK: It was pretty serendipitous. I mean, I was working on another magazine story for Harper's about extinct mountain lions or mountain lions that were supposedly extinct. It was the eastern mountain lion that had gone extinct in 1888 after all of the, you know, the hunting down and over-killing in the 19th century. But there are all of these sightings of them all over the place, almost like Elvis sightings. And I guess I got kind of taken by the whole cryptozoological thing of that, and I got in deeper, but then I started reading about the natural history behind it. And so I was reading a lot of stuff about the 19th century...

FLATOW: Right.

Prof. KIRK: ...and, you know, the programs and the - I just read something in passing about this famous taxidermist, Carl Akeley, who had once famously strangled a leopard with his bare hands, and I was immediately smitten.

FLATOW: And how did he revolutionize - what did he do differently than what other people have been doing until then?

Prof. KIRK: Well, he - I mean, he did start out, you know, the same way. I mean, he might have had a little more passion as a youngster. He was so obsessed with it as a child - like 11, 12 years old - that his whole bedroom had been devoted to tearing apart and reassembling animals. And he had the arsenic and the phenol and all of these toxic preserving chemicals that he could get around the corner at the local drugstore. But his family was so concerned with him and his obsession with taxidermy that one point an aunt of his suggested that perhaps he could - he'll do well to go away to an insane asylum for youth.

But then he finally left home and he went and worked for a company called WARD's Science - WARD's Natural Science Establishment in Rochester, New York, which was not far from the farm where Akeley grew up. And this place, WARD's, was producing not only dioramas and stuffed animals for the new up-and-coming natural history museums, but you know, everything - you know, gemstones and geodes and fossils and all of that.

And it was while he was working there that he became pretty disillusioned with the methods that they were using, which hadn't really been evolved since the advent of taxidermy itself. So they would take a skin and just, you know, they would prop it up in a basic armature using the leg bones of the animal and the skull and then create kind of a loose armature around that and stuff it with whatever they had around the shop, mainly sawdust or rags or whatever.

So in the end they were kind of obscene looking, in Akeley's opinion, just kind of grotesque effigies. And he felt that - he felt like it could do much better. So he started systematically studying anatomy and really applying himself to try and figure out a new method to, you know, make the animals look...

FLATOW: Yeah.

Prof. KIRK: ...more like they looked in real life.

FLATOW: And he had to find new materials to use to do it.

Prof. KIRK: He did.

FLATOW: Yeah. And he...

Prof. KIRK: I mean, he went through a number of different experiments. At first, you know, the first real epiphany for him was when he realized that he really had a knack for sculpting with clay. Now, they had already - they had always had clay around the studio for just kind of lumping up these armatures that I mentioned. But he really he really took to it. It was an orangutan that had been brought back, and that's one of the key points too that I should mention, that a lot of the taxidermists were not mounting animals that they themselves had witnessed in nature, in which Akeley would later go on to do. And I think that was very significant as well. But this orangutan that he's working on, you know, he did the usual armature with the leg bones and the skull and whatnot, and then he started building it up. And then he started using clay, and he was just basically inspired to make a clay sculpture of the animal. And in the end, just the clay sculpture itself was beautiful. It was a work of art.

FLATOW: All right, Jay, going to have to hold you there. We'll come back and talk more with Jay Kirk, author of the new book "Kingdom Under Glass."

Stay with us. We'll be right back after this break.

(Soundbite of music)

FLATOW: I'm Ira Flatow. This is SCIENCE FRIDAY from NPR.

You're listening to SCIENCE FRIDAY from NPR. I'm Ira Flatow. We're talking this hour about the life of Carl Akeley - he was a pioneer of taxidermy, an adventurer who travelled all over Africa gathering specimens - with my guest Jay Kirk, author of "Kingdom Under Glass: A Tale of Obsession, Adventure and One Man's Quest to Preserve the World's Great Animals."

And if you want to see some of Akeley's photos from trips to Africa - he took a lot of them when he was out there - our science and arts producer Katherine Wells has an audio slide show up on our science and arts website. That's at sciencefriday.com/arts, if you'd like to see that. 1-800-989-8255.

You know, Jay, a lot of people are upset by the thought of just going out to shoot animals to bring them back to stuff them for a museum. Did Akeley ever have that feeling himself you know, what am I doing here? I'm just killing...

Prof. KIRK: Yeah.

FLATOW: You know...

Prof. KIRK: Yeah, very much so. He had it at the very beginning, when he went on his first expedition for the Chicago Field Museum in 1896. He felt like - he'd gone after a Somali wild ass, and it died without too much fanfare or protest, and he sort of felt like, well, if this is the life of a collector, then I don't really know if there's much sport in it or if I feel so great about it. But the fact of the matter is, he kind of he kind of got into the swing after a while and became quite the hunter, was dedicated to the job.

And it wasn't until 1921, when he was in the Congo collecting mountain gorillas, when he really first had his great epiphany and realized - I mean, he felt like a murderer, and he writes about this very affectingly, just - and I think it was probably easier for him to feel like a murderer because he was face to face with a primate, and it was easier to feel, you know, simpatico with a gorilla that seems much more like a human than maybe a gazelle or a, you know, or a giraffe or something more alien.

So, you know, in the end, that that led - this is towards the end of his life and his story - but I mean that is his great redemption in the end, that he felt so strongly about this that he dedicated the latter part of his life persuading the Belgian government to establish what would be the first wildlife sanctuary in Africa.

And without this, you know, without question, the mountain gorilla would have gone extinct, because at this point - I mean this is during the period of the golden age of safaris when, you know, presidents - I mean Theodore Roosevelt went over there hunting elephants with Akeley, you know, at Akeley's suggestion, and you know, American magnates and Swedish princes. And you know, it was very macho. And so somebody would go and shoot 80 lions without blinking or go...

FLATOW: Eighty?

Prof. KIRK: ...shoot...

FLATOW: They'd shoot 80 lions.

Prof. KIRK: Yeah. There wasn't a whole lot of regulations with lions.

FLATOW: Wow.

Prof. KIRK: There were permits that restricted the number of animals you could kill, like elephants and giraffes and other things like that, that we still are aghast at. You know, I think the limit on giraffes was something like, you know, six. Oh, okay. Well, only six giraffes.

But, you know, Akeley realized with the mountain gorillas in the early '20s that they - that they were a very limited population. They had only relatively recently been discovered. Nobody really understood what they were. I mean the lowland gorilla was much more populated and people had had more encounters with them, but the mountain gorilla, Akeley felt, was very special, so...

FLATOW: There's that famous exhibit of gorillas that everybody sees, and that's the one he put together?

Prof. KIRK: Yeah, one of the corner pieces...

FLATOW: Yeah.

Prof. KIRK: Yeah.

FLATOW: Yeah. Let me get a question, a tweet, in here from Leslie M.B.(ph), who says: Martha Maxwell revolutionized taxidermy display in the 1870s, had a huge habitat display at the Centennial in 1876. Rarely acknowledged, exclamation point. Have you heard of her, Martha Maxwell?

(Soundbite of laughter)

Prof. KIRK: I'm embarrassed to say I have not. I mean, I'm aware of William Hornaday. I mean, there's - I mean, Akeley did not invent taxidermy, and there were certainly other people who made great advances in it. One of his predecessors who ended up being at the, you know, American Museum of Natural History as well, William Hornaday, had created some of the proto-natural habitats. These are the ones that kind of express the idea of ecology within a diorama, so it's not just, you know, a monkey paw or an animal in a vacuum, you know, in a glass box vacuum, but actually included the flora and the trees and the plants. And it showed that an animal is, you know, intertwined with his environment.

And you know, in going back earlier, I think the first natural history museum of the United States was run by Charles Willson Peale here in Philadelphia, and he had done some advances as well. The thing is though - I mean, Akeley's method was the one that - it was just so far beyond what anyone else had done...

FLATOW: Right.

Prof. KIRK: ...in terms of really capturing the essence of the animals, you know...

FLATOW: And today, what's the role of taxidermy today? There is no more taxidermy being done in (unintelligible) museums...

Prof. KIRK: Oh, there's certainly...

FLATOW: ...in terms of an exhibition? No one is going out and...

Prof. KIRK: Well, I mean...

FLATOW: ...shooting 80 lions anymore.

Prof. KIRK: No. Fortunately, that is passed.

FLATOW: Yes.

Prof. KIRK: Now it's camera safaris. No. I mean, you know, the American Museum of Natural History still welcomes millions and millions of people coming to the museum just to see the dioramas. They're wonderful. They're fascinating to look at. And I think you can love them with a grain of salt. It's interesting to know where they came from.

But, certainly, no scientific you know, no natural history museum is setting out expeditions to collect endangered species, which is what was going on at the turn of the century.

FLATOW: Mm-hmm. Let's see if I can get a quick question in here from Natalie(ph) in Havre de Grace, Maryland. Hi, Natalie.

NATALIE: Hi.

FLATOW: Hi, there. Go ahead.

NATALIE: Well, I was reading a biography of Teddy Roosevelt and it turned out that in his youth he was very interested in taxidermy and did they share I mean, were they at the same time period and did they know each other?

Prof. KIRK: Yes, they did. And that's a great point. I mean, Teddy Roosevelt was a naturalist. Even after he came out of office in 1908, you know, many people were trying to encourage him, you know, to become the president of Harvard or to go to the Smithsonian and become a great scientist. He had a great scientific mind. Darwin was a taxidermist. You couldn't be a naturalist without being a taxidermist.

And to answer your other question, yeah. Roosevelt, I think, embodied this period more than anyone in many ways. And Akeley and he were friends. Akeley actually convinced Teddy Roosevelt to come to Africa. And he went Roosevelt went over to Africa and collected for the Smithsonian.

FLATOW: Mm-hmm. And then...

Prof. KIRK: And they actually they met up while they were there and went elephant hunting as well because Roosevelt was part of the New York circle. And, you know, his father had been one of the founders of the original American Museum of Natural History. And so he collected a number of elephants that ended up in that great centerpiece of the herd of elephants.

FLATOW: Yeah. But they don't have those dioramas around that they used to have with the stuffed animals in them any more at the Smithsonian.

Prof. KIRK: And the Smithsonian.

FLATOW: Yeah. They got rid of it?

Prof. KIRK: No. They've you know, they've gotten...

FLATOW: Yeah.

Prof. KIRK: ...rid a lot of those. I mean, there's certainly a degree of ambivalence about keeping stuff like that around. I know that was the case at The Natural History Museum in London has gotten rid of a bunch of stuff, and the Smithsonian got rid of a lot of stuff as well, lamentably, for some people. You know, they still have animals that are, you know, taxidermied animals there. But I think they've gone over a more toward, you know, modern, interactive, digital-type of edutainment.

FLATOW: All right. I want to bring on Flora Lichtman for our Video Pick of the Week. She's here to tell us about her visit to a taxidermy studio this week. Welcome, Flora.

FLORA LICHTMAN: Thanks, Ira. It was an adventure. Katherine Wells, the arts producer, and I went and checked out Schwendeman's Taxidermy Studio in this little town in New Jersey. And it's funny. It's like a family business. It's been around for 90 years. It reminds you of a family business when you go in. There's fourth generation apprentices learning - except that they're learning how to flesh a bear and skin a deer. In fact, we have some audio from our trip. So you can get a sense of kind of what it sounds like to be in the shop.

(Soundbite of grinding)

Mr. DAVID SHWENDEMAN (Taxidermist, Schwendeman's Taxidermy Studio): Yeah, we have brain spoons. And this is a small ear splitter. This is a bigger ear splitter. See the difference? This is well, this is for cantaloupes. But we use it for fat scraping. Perfect.

FLATOW: Wow.

LICHTMAN: That was David Schwendeman. He runs the shop and he is the grandson of Arthur Schwendeman, who started it. And actually, we have him here on the line. So he can give us a better sense of what goes on.

FLATOW: Welcome, David.

Mr. SHWENDEMAN: Yes. Hi. Hello?

FLATOW: Hi, there. Do you where do you get your animals? Mostly hunters bring them in for you?

Mr. SHWENDEMAN: Well, we are different than a lot of studios. We do a lot of museum works and specimens for nature centers and as well as for the sportsmen.

LICHTMAN: And some things have changed since Akeley's methods, right? We saw a lot of foam being used for the mounts.

Mr. SHWENDEMAN: Well, yes. Styrofoam has supplanted the hollow Akeley method of mannequin making, but the principle is still the same, where Carl Akeley would go out and make molds of actual skinned animals. They still do that today. But now, the mannequin is made out of polyurethane foams.

LICHTMAN: And you can actually order them from a catalog, right?

Mr. SHWENDEMAN: Right. There's catalogs. I was talking about the size of the catalog; they're like a small phonebook.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. SHWENDEMAN: And there's many manufacturers of typical game animals that are hunted in the United States.

FLATOW: Well, something I've always wondered about is the preservation process. You know, you've seen civilizations that are thousands of years old. They've learned how to do this many years ago. What tools do you use to preserve the skin then?

Mr. SHWENDEMAN: Well, we use regular hand tools. But the treatment of the skin is what's critical. And there are certain tanning formulas for mammals. There's tanning formulas for fish skins. And there's tanning formulas for bird skins.

And once the skin is tanned properly and mounted over a mannequin the proper size and shape of the animal, it can last indefinitely.

LICHTMAN: And I was surprised to learn that you don't need a lot of really synthetic, new age chemicals to do this, right?

Mr. SHWENDEMAN: Oh, no. No, no. So, you know, just like pickling spices for foods and other materials of what is used in the skins.

FLATOW: You mean, the same stuff that turns a cucumber into a pickle will preserve a skin?

Mr. SHWENDEMAN: Exactly, exactly. But then, once the natural oils are taken out of the skin during the pickling process, they have to be re-applied with synthetic oils and then manipulated to get back the softness of them so that they can be taxied or arranged over the mannequin. So taxidermy is the arrangement or movement of the skin over an artificial form.

LICHTMAN: You know, I was wondering - and this is a question for Jay too. You know, what are the dangers of taxidermy? You're working with all these dead animals, are there dangers of getting diseases? And did Akeley have to worry about this as well?

Mr. SCHWENDEMAN: Oh, yeah.

Prof. KIRK: I remember reading about quite a long laundry list of possibly lethal things that you could get, including sarcoptic mange and rabies and all of these things. But, I mean, that's going back awhile.

Mr. SCHWENDEMAN: Well...

Prof. KIRK: And certainly, you know, using arsenic couldn't have been healthy. I'd rather use pickling...

Mr. SCHWENDEMAN: Well, arsenic is not that bad.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Prof. KIRK: ...brine.

Mr. SCHWENDEMAN: But mercuric chlorides and certain other things -asbestos in the maches is very hazardous.

FLATOW: Mm-hmm. We're talking about taxidermy this hour on SCIENCE FRIDAY from NPR. I'm Ira Flatow, here with Flora Lichtman, talking with David Schwendeman and Jay Kirk.

David, what is - are there future techniques, you know, down the road, or is just the old way is still the good way?

Mr. SCHWENDEMAN: The old way is still the good way. I have a French textbook on taxidermy from the 17 - 1758, and they show the - how they were doing it was the same way my grandfather taught me. And then those - the animals still exist. You know, there's mounted birds from 400 years old that are still in existence.

FLATOW: And what do you do with the animals themselves. I mean, people are concerned you're not just going out shooting animals for the sake of animals. I mean, are you...

Mr. SCHWENDEMAN: Oh, for taxidermy, no.

Prof. KIRK: Yeah.

Mr. SCHWENDEMAN: One of - we do not advocate killing anything for taxidermy purposes. Enough animals die, they're hit by cars, they fly into windows accidentally, they can be salvaged for the nature center or the museum. But as far as the sportsmen go is they follow the rules and regulations. The - a well-mounted trophy is worth a story, you know, and it's a shame to see that animal go to waste once is has been killed.

LICHTMAN: And you dont waste any of those parts.

Prof. KIRK: I can attest to that.

Mr. SCHWENDEMAN: Yeah.

Prof. KIRK: I can attest to that. I visited Dave's shop one afternoon.

Mr. SCHWENDEMAN: Right.

Prof. KIRK: And they were working on a badger that was a piece of road kill, I recall.

Mr. SCHWENDEMAN: Right. Right. So...

Prof. KIRK: And then we ate lunch at the same table where you were taking it apart.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. SCHWENDEMAN: That's right.

Prof. KIRK: You were testing me.

LICHTMAN: Yeah, we missed out on some venison stew, it sounds like.

Mr. SCHWENDEMAN: You have a rain check for that, Flora.

LICHTMAN: Right. Thanks, David.

Mr. SCHWENDEMAN: So.

LICHTMAN: You know, I was wondering how there'd be sort of mixed feelings that museums have has changed demand for taxidermy. Have you seen your business changed, David, over time?

Mr. SCHWENDEMAN: Yeah. A lot of the major museums are, well, they have their thing. Whatever they have mounted is on the outside. They have no more museum taxidermists on staff for the most part. Some do, but most are going the way of outsourcing their taxidermy work. And the demand for a large dioramas like at the American museum is essentially over. But there's still a lot of repair and restoration in small animals, and special exhibits that require an animal or two. But we're still very busy.

LICHTMAN: David, what's the weirdest or biggest thing you've ever taxidermied?

Mr. SCHWENDEMAN: Here in our studio, well, life-size musk ox, Alaskan brown bear, polar bears. We haven't gotten into the African safari venues as much as other people. But I enjoyed doing the small mammals like a chipmunk. To see the chipmunk up close is for - in the nature center is a thrill to most people. They don't get that close to them.

FLATOW: It is the same process for birds? Is it the same? Was the pickling the same? The feathers stay on?

Mr. SCHWENDEMAN: Well, yeah. Birds are actually washed. We don't do any tanning of the birds' skins. They're washed and degreased and they really looks a disheveled mess. But once it's dried and fluffed out and cleaned in various powders and stuff, they look great. They really come out natural and...

FLATOW: The state of New Jersey just, what, a week or two ago culled 400 bears in the state. They had open season on bear hunting, correct?

Mr. SCHWENDEMAN: Yeah, I think it was 589.

FLATOW: No kidding. And did you get any of those?

Mr. SCHWENDEMAN: We took in one. I don't advertise, but we got in one of those bears.

LICHTMAN: In fact you can see that bear being fleshed on our website. And I think we should do a little disclaimer. I mean, we showed everything that we saw in the shop. And one thing that was neat about the shop is that it really didn't feel that scary to be in it.

FLATOW: Yeah.

LICHTMAN: But I think, you know, out of context, people should be prepared that we show what we saw.

FLATOW: And if you go to our website at sciencefriday.com, you can see a visit to David Schwendeman's shop and watch how Flora has captured all the ways that - the ancient technology, right?

LICHTMAN: Yeah. It really...

FLATOW: How taxidermists work. Go over to our website at sciencefriday.com. It's got the Video Pick of the Week over there on the left side. And be prepared to, you know, it's a little gory at points but it's stuff that you wouldn't see at, you know, the butcher shop.

Mr. SCHWENDEMAN: Exactly. That's what I like to say.

LICHTMAN: Yeah.

FLATOW: Well, good luck to you and happy holidays, David. Thanks for joining us.

Mr. SCHWENDEMAN: Thank very much. And hi, Jay Kirk, and everybody else.

Prof. KIRK: Hey, Dave.

Mr. SCHWENDEMAN: Thank you very much.

FLATOW: David Schwendeman is a taxidermist at Schwendeman's Taxidermy Studio and Museum Services in Milltown. And Jay, thank you for taking time to be with us. Good luck with your book.

Prof. KIRK: Thanks so much.

FLATOW: Jay Kirk is author of "Kingdom Under Glass: A Tale of Obsession, Adventure and One Man's Quest to Preserve the World's Great Animals." He's also professor of creative writing at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia.

View the original article here